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166 – Find Happiness in Chaos with Guest Tricia Goyer

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Find Happiness in Chaos with Guest Tricia Goyer Write from the Deep podcast with Karen Ball and Erin Taylor YoungChaos is a given in life today, especially if you’re a writer. Finding time to write in the midst of all that’s going on can seem impossible. Which can be depressing and frustrating. Which can steal our ability to enjoy the task God has given us to share His stories. Guest Tricia Goyer is here to help you not only cope with chaos, but find happiness in the midst of it!

About Tricia Goyer

Tricia Goyer is a speaker, podcast host, and USA Today bestselling author of over 80 books. Tricia writes in numerous genres including fiction, parenting, marriage, and books for children and teens. She’s a wife, homeschooling mom of ten, and she loves to mentor writers through WriteThatBook.Club. Tricia lives near Little Rock, AR.

Thanks to our sponsors on Patreon, we’re able to offer an edited transcript of the podcast!

Erin: Welcome, listeners. Welcome to the deep with us. We’re excited because we have a guest, and I’m super excited about the topic. I’m going to let Karen introduce our guest.

Karen: Our guest is the amazing Tricia Goyer. I mean, there are some people who use amazing for everything, but when you use that word for Tricia, it’s true. She’s been married to her husband, John, for 28 years and they have—are you sitting down?—ten children officially, plus two more bonus daughters, who totally count as their kids.

She has started Hope Pregnancy center in Kalispell, Montana, led a teen moms support group since 2002, and God has opened the doors for her to publish 70 plus books and 500 plus articles. We call her—she’s a part of the same brainstorming group that I’m a part of that meets once a year—and we call her the Energizer bunny. She just does not stop.

She’s also had the privilege to speak all over the United States and internationally. On top of all that, she homeschools their kids. She’s been homeschooling for 25 years and still has another 10 years to go. That just boggles my mind. And she’s such a joyful, happy person, even on top of all of that.

I love this quote from her website: “I dared to say to God, ‘If you can do anything with my life, please do.’ I’m amazed what God’s done. I know where I was headed: to destruction and a life of pain and shame. Yet God has turned everything around for his good.”

That’s what we’re here to talk about today. How God turns everything around for his good and for our good. So, Tricia thank you. Thank you for being with us and welcome!

Tricia: Thank you, Erin and Karen. It’s so great to be here. I love connecting with you, and I think you guys are awesome, too.

Erin: Well, thank you. We are delighted for you to be here. Our first question, as usual, is what does the deep mean to you?

Tricia: Well, the deep means really going deep into God’s love. As someone who grew up not understanding God’s love, I didn’t have a biological dad around, my stepdad was very distant, it has taken me a long time to understand, to truly understand the love of God. Now that I totally understand this love, I feel like I can just climb up in his lap and be in his embrace.

That is the deep to me, just realizing that his love will never leave me and that he is always with me.

Erin: I like that.

Karen: We’re here to talk to Tricia today about having a happy heart. She’s just recently had a book release called Heart Happy: Staying Centered in God’s Love Through Chaotic Circumstances. But I started reading it, and I’m pretty sure that Erin started reading it, and it’s pretty remarkable.

It’s funny, when you think of happy people, you look at them and you think they’ve never known a difficult day in their lives. But that’s just not true. Tricia, why might writers struggle to be happy in the Lord?

Tricia: Well, I think sometimes we just don’t understand what happy is. I think sometimes we think happy is that everything has to be going right in our world, and happy is that we have a great day, and I’ve lost ten pounds, and my jeans fit better. All of those things is what we tie our happiness to.

But actually happy and blessed are words that can be both used in the same Scripture verses. So, you know, those verses that say, “Blessed is the one who… fill in the blank,” it could be also translated happy. And that isn’t blessed, like, blessed that I have a new SUV. It is going back to God’s Word saying: walking the right path. So that word blessed and happy is translated from the word essure, which means walking on the right path.

When we are in God’s will, when we are walking on his path, that is where we find our happiness and blessed. And we all know God’s path. Isn’t perfect and we don’t have everyday sunshine and birds singing out the window. But if we know we have God, we can lean on him. We can depend on him. We can seek him for our strength. That is where we get that inner happiness that only comes with communion with God.

Erin: There’s a lot in the Bible about joy. Tell me what you see as the difference between being joyful and being happy.

Tricia: That is such a good question. I think joy is that outward expression of, you know, we have the self-control, we have the faithfulness, and the joy is the outward expression of what God is doing in our lives.

I see happy more as a deep-rooted thing in our soul. When we are happy in the Lord, it’s more like a contentment, a settling in our heart with God’s heart. Joy, we can be joyful and rejoice, and it’s having joy in that outward expression. But happy is more the inward expression and the inward state of being connected with God.

Erin: That’s super interesting. I like that distinction. I’m thinking, too, for writers, like both of those, being joyful and happiness, I think that writers can struggle with them. It’s a very difficult journey, or can be. Why do you think it’s important for writers to be happy? I mean, what happens if we’re not happy?

Tricia: Yeah, that’s such a good question. I think going back to what does it mean to be happy and what happens when we’re not happy? There are times when we are going to feel unsettled. There are times when we’re going to have a whole list of chaos in our life. There’s going to be all the external things, but it goes back to the happiness in the Lord. Where I got this term from, the term heart happy, was from George Mueller.

George Mueller was someone who lived 150 years ago and he cared for orphans. He also journaled everything that was going on in his life. He had lists and lists of prayer requests, and he always took his needs before God, that God would provide for him. Even though he was caring for thousands of orphans at a time, he never requested money. He knew that the Lord would provide.

George Mueller says that before he would get up in his day, before he did anything else, he would read Scripture, he would pray, and he would get his heart happy in the Lord. It just made me realize, like that’s been a routine in my life for many, many years. I mean, for decades, no matter what’s going on.

We’ve added kids biologically. We’ve added kids through adoption in our home. There’s been a lot of trauma. There’s been a lot of chaos, and every day I jump out of bed because I need Jesus so much. I need to be in God’s Word. I read Scripture and then ask God, “What do you have for me?” There might be a lot going on in my life, but I have to center my heart in the Lord.

If we are struggling, which all of us do, with not feeling happy, we need to go back to where the source is from. We need to go back to God. We need to go back to his Word. And it’s not like the circumstances always change. But my heart changes in the middle of the circumstances, where I can step back and say, “You are in control. You know what’s going on. You love me completely. You have a good plan for my life. You have a good plan for these circumstances.”

Then I can go on with my day better able to handle trying to meet a writing deadline, trying to deal with kids from trauma, trying to homeschool my children, whatever it is. The happiness must come from that time with the Lord first, and that makes all the difference in our day.

Karen: I think that’s an excellent point. Too many of us tie happiness to our circumstances. And, “How can I be happy when this is happening? And this is happening? And I’m suffering this, and I’ve just had a loss, and I’m sick all the time and blah, blah, blah. How am I supposed to be happy in the face of this?”

And that’s because we’re looking at it through human, finite eyes, rather than going back to Scripture and understanding that circumstances don’t have anything to do with it. I love what C.S. Lewis said once, and I can never remember the exact quote, but it’s along the lines of, “I don’t pray to change God’s mind. I pray to gain God’s heart.”

You have to recognize that, in many ways, happiness has very little to do with us specifically. It has very little to do with what’s going on in our lives. It completely has to do with whether we are content in God, as you have said.

Erin: Yeah. The other thing that I noticed too, Tricia, when you were talking about that, we have to go back to, “God loves me. God knows what he’s doing.” You know, you were preaching to yourself. Faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ. You were preaching to yourself from God’s Word so that your faith can grow, so that the Holy Spirit can work on you.

Because I was thinking, “What are the steps to being happy? What about the person who’s really struggling?” But you exactly gave us the formula, so to speak. Going to God, looking at his Word and preaching to yourself, and understanding and knowing those promises.

Guys, for you out there who just, you know, today is a rough day, and you’re struggling with this, go back to just the one thing you know for sure about God and preach it to yourself because the Holy Spirit will work through that.

Karen: Amen.

Tricia: Yeah. I have a good example of that from when we were doing trauma therapy with my little guy who we adopted. He was almost three years old, and we had no relationship because we got him when he was almost three. He’d been moved around in foster care, and he was destructive.

My whole life of having him was just, “Don’t do that. Stop doing that. Put that down. Why won’t you do this?” I mean, trying to get him to obey me.

So we go to trauma therapy, and I’m thinking it was going to, like, teach me how to discipline him. Instead, she says, “This is what I want you to do. I want you to get some special toys and spend five minutes a day with Casey, and your complete focus is on him. I want you to see what he’s doing, state what he’s doing, repeat what he says, and to praise him.”

So I would say, “Okay, Casey, you are lining up your cars. You are handing Mommy a car. Good job, Casey, for sharing your car with Mommy.”

Then he would say, “Mommy car. Mommy car. You gave mommy a car.” And that relationship was built. It wasn’t about getting him to obey. It wasn’t about the obedience. The relationship was built as I was connecting with him. I was seeing him. I was repeating him. He came to trust me, and I came to appreciate him.

I realized one day that as I’m going to God’s Word, that’s what I’m doing. I am seeing what God’s doing. “In your Word, God, you say that you are faithful. You say you can pull us out from the miry pit. I see your faithfulness, God. I praise you for your faithfulness.”

Just like I was building that relationship with Casey, I can do that with God every day of my life when I see what he’s doing, when I repeat what he says, and when I praise him. That has just become something that I’ve done in my life, and it came from trauma therapy with a little three-year-old guy.

Erin: That is very cool. I think that’s such a good description of how we can build a relationship with God. I think that’s amazing. So how is Casey doing these days?

Tricia: He is doing awesome. He’s eleven now, and he is such a mama’s boy. I’ll be sitting on the couch and he’ll just climb up and wrap his big arms and legs around me and just have a hug with me. We love reading together. Every night, I go up to his room and we’re actually reading through the Little House on the Prairie series. He just thinks it’s cool that Mom is there reading to him. I get to pick the books for reading.

We have a wonderful relationship now, but it doesn’t come from me saying, “You’re not doing this right, and you’re not doing that right,” which I think sometimes we do with God. Like, “How come you’re not doing this? And how come you’re not doing that right? Things were supposed to turn out differently. I was supposed to have ten books published by now, and this isn’t working right.”

Or whatever it is, we’re pointing out what God’s doing wrong. Instead, we just need to commune with him and build that relationship with.

Erin: I wonder if sometimes we’re worried that God is pointing out things we’re doing wrong, too. And he’s not. He’s looking at us. He’s doing the same thing, going “Wow, Erin, you’re looking at me. Good job, Erin.”

Karen: One of the things that we wanted to talk about was how shame interferes with happiness. I think shame and false guilt, both do that. When we think that we’re hearing God criticize us and that that’s all that we’re getting from God as input, that’s not input from the Lord. God doesn’t work with us that way. He works the way that you did with your little boy. He draws us in love and he tells us how much he loves us and why he loves us.

So how do things like shame and false guilt interfere with that heart happiness?

Tricia: I talk about this in the book because for many years, even after I accepted Christ, I felt shame because I chose to have an abortion at age fifteen. I listened to the wrong voices. I was trying to escape what I thought was a problem, and I made a very bad decision.

For years, even after I became a Christian, it was like, “God loves me, except for this. God forgives me. Except for this. I can forgive myself, except for this.”

It was really going through a post-abortion Bible study that I realized, like, if I’m saying God can’t forgive me for this or his love doesn’t go this far, then none of it counts. I either have to accept all of it or none of it.

So I started really walking out in that love. But it has been even over time, I’m very much a people pleaser. I want to make everyone happy. I want to turn in the book right on time and have it be perfect. I mean, all those things go back to that, trying to please other people and trying to please God.

And it really came after I ended up adopting all these kids. I had to ask for extensions on a couple of books deadlines. My house is messy all the time. I remember one day in the laundry room, just crying. Like, “I can’t do this. It’s too much.”

It was like God was saying, “Finally. You’ve finally gotten to the place where you need me.”

Because I think I was working so hard to try to please him and make him happy. I felt that the gentlest whisper, “I love you just as much. I love you just as much if you miss your deadline,” which I try not to miss my deadlines.

“I love you just as much as if there’s a pile of laundry,” which currently there’s laundry in my laundry room.

I just had to get to that place, and that’s why the deep to me is God’s love and realizing we don’t have to perform to get to God’s love. We will never be perfect. I try really hard to be perfect. And God’s like, “Will you stop? Will you stop? I love you just as you are.”

Erin: I think that’s interesting because sometimes we as writers feel like our writing is our performance. Like that’s where we’re gaining our value or our worth. It’s not. It’s just not.

Karen: And that’s dangerous because then that leads you to look to other measuring sticks. To sales and to how much marketing money you get, and “That person’s on the bestseller list and I’m not. Why aren’t I on the bestseller list? That person started writing five years after I did, and they’ve sold a ga-jillion books and I’ve sold thirty-two.”

We fall into comparison and we fall into looking at the wrong measuring sticks for our worth. Then we start asking ourselves, “Did God really call me to write?”

We start getting into this downward spiral that absolutely delights the enemy. He’s so happy when he can sidetrack us and take us down into that dark hole of depression and shame and false guilt. It’s dangerous, and we just need to treat it like a rattlesnake and stay as far away from that as we can.

Tricia: Yeah. And I think it’s so important. I love what you were saying, Karen, about comparing with others, because once we start writing, I mean, there’s Amazon ratings and bestsellers lists, and all those things.

I have a sweet friend who I took to her very first conference. I introduced her around. I introduced her to my agent. She signed with my agent, and her book hit the bestsellers list and stayed there for a very, very, very long time. I’m like, what? I don’t understand. I think I had like thirteen or fourteen books at the time, and her one book had sold way more than mine.

I just felt God saying, “I have a plan for you. It’s a different plan than my plan for her. Would you have written all these other books if you just had one that really hit it big?”

I’d be like, “Uh, no.” I’d be sitting back going, “Great! I don’t need to write about that subject…”

And he’s like, “I have a plan for you. I need you to write this, and I need you to write that.” And the sales are enough to keep going.

We always try to compare and God’s like, “Look at me. Lift your eyes.”

That’s why my morning time is so important. It just turns my eyes to God instead of all those other things and all those other thoughts that are swirling around in our minds.

Karen: I read a challenge on Facebook, of all places, where it said: First thing in the morning, reach for the Bible, not the screen. It was urging people: Don’t get on your phone. Don’t get on your tablet. Don’t get on anything like that. Get into Scripture and reach for that first, and then go to the screen if you need to.

Tricia: Absolutely.

Erin: What I like also about your book is the subtitle. I think it’s great: Staying Centered in God’s Love through Chaotic Circumstances. I’m pretty sure that from what we’ve heard from you today, you’ve lived through chaotic circumstances. What do you think is the biggest challenge for writers in trying to stay centered on God’s love when they’re in chaotic circumstances? What do you think is the biggest challenge there and how can they overcome that?

Tricia: When we think of chaos, we think of the whirlwind, and we think of the tornado. We think of all these things swirling around us. I think the biggest challenge is to think that we can let those things overwhelm us and that it’s an excuse for not doing what God called us to do.

I think with me, God, put these book ideas in my life. I’ve had book contracts and it could have been easy for me to say, “I’m dealing with kids in trauma right now. I cannot do do this.”

But instead I said, “You know what? There’s trauma going on. We are working on the trauma. But for the next hour, I’m going to work on the message God gave me for other people.”

Sometimes those messages have included things like what I wrote my book called Calming Angry Kids, which talks about how to help kids who are angry and in trauma. I worked on books that deal with those sorts of things. But sometimes I’m working on novels, and I’m just pouring my emotions into the characters. Because God gave me a message and he gave me the ability to write this.

We can just step back and say, “There’s too much going on. I can’t do this.” But I’ve seen God’s face the most over and over again when I say, “Okay, I only have an hour today, and I really am tired right now, but I really feel that this is something you’ve called me to write.”

I still sit in the chair, put my fingers on the keyboard, and I still work on it. It’s amazing. I’ve had books I wrote in the middle of the biggest, biggest chaos. When we had a teen that was really acting out, I was writing the novel called The Elder Sister about Miriam.

I was in the middle of it. I was digging into the Bible and writing about Miriam and Moses and Aaron and learning about their culture and all those things. There’d be sometimes screaming in the other room, with this teen, as I’m sitting there working on this book.

After I went back and read it, I’m like, “How did this even happen?”

It was probably my least edited book. It just was God. It was God’s hand on it, because he knew I was trying to be faithful in the midst of the chaos. That is such a meaningful book to me, because I know what was going on around it. Then to hear about the grumbling and all the things with the Israelites. I mean, those emotions are there inside the book because they were there inside my home.

There’s no coincidence that that was going on and I’m trying to write this story. I was crying as I was writing and pouring into this character of Miriam because some of the things she faced were similar to the chaos happening in my life.

So I think instead of saying, “I can’t do it. I don’t have time. I’m just going to put this writing thing to the side,” realize that through it, whatever is going on, it can channel into your work, too, and God has a purpose for it.

Karen: I love that. I love how he takes each of us and he shows what he wants us to do, and we just have to be obedient. Sometimes that’s people like you, Tricia, who are able to keep going, even with the screaming in the next room. But if you’re the kind of person that needs to just kind of turtle in and stay away from everything for a little while, God’s okay with that because he works with us as we are.

He created us. He knows exactly what we need and what we’re able to do. I love that that book is special to you because you know that in your weakness, he was shown strong. You have testimony out there all over the bookshelves of how God has been faithful to you and how God has been faithful to you being faithful. I really love that.

Erin: We’re coming to the end of our time. Do you have some final words of wisdom you want to share with our listeners?

Tricia: Yeah. I would just say that I think all of us are going to have some level of chaos in our lives. I doubt there’s any people out there who say, “Oh, my life is perfectly happy, and there’s nothing going on.”

We’re all going to have some type of chaos. I think definitely leaning into God and then reaching out to others for support. Karen mentioned our group earlier. I would just pour out my prayer requests to them.

So, just have other people around you. I think it gets dangerous when we become isolated and when we don’t share our needs, and we don’t share our requests. Ask other people to pray for you during those times.

I know some of the prayers that the group wrote back to me were exactly what I needed in that moment and the encouragement to keep going. Whatever your chaotic circumstances are, just know that God’s there for you and other people can be there for you. But you just have to open your heart to both.

Karen: I think that sums this time up very well, so let’s just say amen!

Erin: Amen.

Facing Chaos? Guest @TriciaGoyer helps you find happiness in the midst of it! #amwriting #christianwriter Click To Tweet

Are there aspects of your writing journey that make you struggle with being happy?

Book by tricia Goyer mentioned in the podcast

Heart Happy by Tricia Goyer

Heart Happy: Staying Centered in God’s Love During Chaotic Circumstances by Tricia Goyer


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Do You Really Know Who God Is? Part 3

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Do You Really Know Who God Is? Part 3 Write from the Deep podcast with Karen Ball and Erin Taylor YoungIf ever there was someone we should get to know intimately, it’s God. How can we write about him and his truth if we don’t have a deep understanding of who he—the source of all truth—is? Join us as we explore God’s attributes and gain a clearer picture of the One we follow, love, and trust!

Thanks to our sponsors on Patreon, we’re able to offer an edited transcript of the podcast!

Erin: Welcome, listeners. Welcome into the deep with us. We’re glad you’re joining us.

Here’s my question. Can any of us really say we know God? We really KNOW him? Everything there is to know about him? I’m thinking not, because he’s very big and our brains are tiny in comparison. But that shouldn’t stop us from doing everything we can, doing our very best, to get to know him.

How can we follow him? How can we trust him? How can we properly worship him if we don’t know him?

Karen: So, we’re going to continue our series on God’s qualities and attributes. This is part three. If you haven’t heard part 1 and part 2, we’ll have a link in the show notes. I’ve got to tell you that in the course of doing these podcasts and trying to think of what the characteristics or traits are of God that I’ve noticed and that I want to explore more, it’s drawn me so much closer to the whole of who God is. Yet I know that I haven’t even begun.

I encourage you to do the same. What traits about God have you noticed? Dig in, explore them, and see where God leads you. Until then we’re going to share these traits today.

God is the Creator

Erin: The first trait we’re going to talk about is that God is the Creator. It’s amusing that we didn’t get to this until part three. Like, we’re creators. As writers, we’re creators. I love to think of this in terms of how God made us in his image, right? So we’re creators, too. It’s our delight as writers to use the creative gifts.

But also I’m thinking about how he’s the ultimate Creator. He’s the prototype. He’s the first. He’s the best. He’s unlimited. He’s got all ability in creativity. Not only can he be an endless supply of creativity. He is a supply for himself and for us as we write.

Then I started thinking about how he acts in the world. God can creatively solve problems in ways that we will never see coming. I think of how many times our life seems so complicated or hopeless or confusing. We can’t see any solution to whatever the situation is.

We have a God who is perfectly creative, and he’s already figured out how to solve everything the way he wants to solve it. We are not always, and probably rarely, going to see it coming. But he’s so much bigger and smarter and wiser and creative.

Guys, I wish we would stop doubting his creativity and stop doubting it in ourselves. He’s given you that gift. Use it and know that he’s going to keep supplying that in you guys.

God is Infinite

Karen: God is also infinite. Now this is the one that just, you know, kind of makes my brain hurt as I try to wrap it around the concept of infinite. No beginning. No end.

Colossians 1:17 tells us, “He is before all things and in him, all things hold together.” Everything holds together in him, but he was before all things. I want to give you a moment to take that in. God was before all things.

When Moses asked God in Exodus, “Who shall I say has sent me?”

God said, “I am that I am.”

Now that’s as definitive as it gets. I am that I am. What he used in there was Yahweh, Jehovah. It’s the most intensely sacred name to Jewish scribes. Many of them will not even pronounce the name. When possible they use another name because it embraces the totality of, “I am that I am.” Beginning, middle, end, beyond, beyond the beginning.

It’s the hardest for our finite brains to grasp the infinite qualities of God. And the fact that he has, as Erin said, infinite resources to work out his will in our lives, to answer the prayers that we bring to him as he sees best. And in the timing that he sees best.

It’s not like God is trying to figure out how to use these limited resources and who gets them. He has an infinite number of resources, not just in the physical, but in the spiritual: his grace, his goodness, his kindness, all of those things. No end to them. No. End.

Erin: One thing you could do with this word is think about the other things we’ve talked about as God being. Loving: infinitely loving. God being creative: infinitely creative. Just put infinite in front of everything. Infinitely big. Like, spend all day putting that word before every attribute and maybe we’ll get some teeny tiny understanding of the infinite incomprehensibility that is God so that we’ll love him and trust him and try to know him better.

God is Righteously Wrathful

The next one, well, here’s one that’s uncomfortable. At least it was for me when I started thinking about it, but I want to talk about it. God is righteously wrathful.

I know that we want to think of God as loving, and he is infinitely loving. We don’t want to think about the fact that he’s wrathful, but every day our God, the Creator of the universe, the God who sustains all life, who was before all things, who holds all things together, who gives us our very breath, every day he’s maligned. He’s minimized. He’s grossly undervalued. He’s taken for granted by Christians and non-Christians alike.

We make ourselves into God when we choose our will over his, and this has been happening, you know, since Adam and Eve. There are consequences for this. God told Adam in Genesis 3:17: “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.”

So yes, God is loving, but he’s also just, and there is a just wrath for sin. Thanks be to God that there is a perfect atonement for this wrath in Jesus Christ’s death on the cross.

But why am I talking to you about all this? It’s because I don’t want us to minimize our sin. I don’t want us to minimize our poor choices or our moral failures. If we minimize that, it’s like we’re saying Christ’s death on the cross was simple, a task that was easy. No big deal.

But it wasn’t. It was costly.

I want us to be mortified by sin. I’m not saying that, you know, we’re supposed to be paralyzed and beat ourselves up forever because again, our sins are atoned for through Christ. But I am saying that our attitude needs to be like Joseph’s attitude. I think of him in Potiphar’s house when Potiphar’s wife kept trying to seduce him. Joseph, in this terribly unfair situation basically says in Genesis 39:9, ” How can I do this great wickedness and sin against God?”

Sin is a moral outrage against God. If we don’t keep that in mind, we will lose what it means to be God and what it means to be people. We can’t be properly humble, and we can’t be grateful for what he’s done for us. God help our world and our country in the wrath that we deserve for this moral outrage. I just want us to keep it in mind.

God is Incomprehensible

Karen: That makes me think of one of the other attributes I’ve been researching, and that’s the fact that God is incomprehensible. We are told in scripture to fear God. We are told in scripture that God’s grace and love are infinite. We are told in scripture that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

And we are also told to fear not. All of this, it may seem contradictory, but it’s not. It’s everything that God is. Yet to our minds, it’s incomprehensible. How often have you prayed and asked God for an answer? It seems like the answer doesn’t come, and you just, you can’t figure out what he’s doing. We can go through our whole lives and feel as though God never brought that answer to bear, even though we prayed.

We say to ourselves, “When I get to eternity, I’ll ask God about this and I’ll get an answer.”

I’ve come to the place where I’ve decided that there are things that we will not need to understand. When we are standing before God Almighty, I’m not going to say to him, “By the way, about that prayer that I prayed back in 1996 that you never seemed to answer, what was going up with that?”

We will never say that to God, because as Psalms 145:3 tells us, “Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable.” We can’t comprehend all of who God is and how great he is.

Romans 11:33-34 tells us, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God. How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been in his counselor?'”

None of us can counsel him. None of us will really know the mind of the Lord until we are there standing face to face with him, because sin has come into our world. Sin is in our hearts. It’s a part of humanity, and it blocks our ability to fully grasp God in all his power and glory. To fully comprehend the totality of God.

Scripture tells us that we see through a glass darkly. It’s that veil of sin that’s blocking our eyes and blocking our understanding. But someday, someday we will know as we are known. We will see him and it will all be there in front of us. We will be able to say yes and holy, holy, holy Lord, God Almighty.

For now, as we dwell behind the veil, we know as much of God as he chooses to reveal. I am so grateful that he reveals himself to us in the ways that he does. Even as I understand, as Erin has said, we’re just getting a teeny tiny piece of the totality of who God is.

God is Omnipresent

Erin: The next trait we want to talk about is that God is omnipresent. What I like about this is that it reassures us that God is always with us. Always. No matter if we feel his presence or not.

I was talking to somebody recently and it just broke my heart. This person was telling me how they used to feel God’s presence so often, and it was so comforting. Lately, they hadn’t been feeling God’s presence and that was traumatic. I don’t know what’s happening there or why, but I do think that there are times when we don’t feel his presence. Those are times when we have to reach out and step out in faith and trust the truth that we know. That he is still present, even if we don’t feel him.

I think sometimes, too, we’re tempted. Especially if maybe we’ve done something we shouldn’t have and maybe we stumbled, we think he’s going to give up on us. We think he’s going to turn his back on us. He does not. He does not. He is always with us no matter what.

I love Deuteronomy 31:8. It’s one of my memory verses. “The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid. Do not be discouraged.”

If ever there was a verse for writers, it’s that one. It’s a hard journey. The writing life is hard. We have to do things that are scary and that make us afraid. We have expectations, we sometimes get discouraged because of them. We sometimes feel alone. But, guys, he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid, do not be discouraged because the infinite Lord goes before you and is always, always with you.

Karen: I really love that. I like that verse in Deuteronomy so much. It’s a very good reminder. Emotions do not equal scriptural truth. We’ve got to rest on the truth and not on what we’re feeling.

God is Impartial

Another attribute is that God is impartial. Now this one I kind of had trouble with. It talks about it all throughout scripture. In Acts 10:34 Peter says, “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality.”

Erin and I were actually just discussing it this morning. What is partiality? We looked in Webster’s and it’s “unfair bias in favor of one thing or person compared with another; favoritism.”

That makes a lot of sense: unfair bias. God does not show bias that is unfair. God doesn’t show bias as we know it.

There’s a section in Isaiah 43 that talks about God giving other peoples in ransom for Israel. Letting other people be killed or destroyed in order to save Israel. My human mind wants to look at that and say, “Teacher’s pet, teacher’s pet. God loves them better than the others.”

But God shows no partiality. Not of one individual over another, not of one race over another. He does not show an unfair bias toward anyone. In God’s eyes, we are all the same, and we have one purpose. We’ll get to that in a second. Colossians 3:25 says, “For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong, which he has done, and that without partiality.”

Just as Erin talked about him being righteously wrathful, he judges according to truth. He doesn’t judge according to emotion. He judges according to truth and according to Christ’s blood. If you’ve been covered by Christ’s blood, if you’ve accepted the gift of salvation, then you will receive grace. But God still has that side of him where he’s going to come in and be wrathful, and he’s going to judge based on truth.

When we tend to question God’s actions because they seem to show partiality, we’re operating from our finite minds and our emotions. We’ve seen so often how people are swayed, or how they’re bribed, or how what seems a good thing actually wasn’t because they were doing something to gain something.

God will never do that. He is God Almighty. He chooses whom to draw, and whom to use to change lives, whose hearts to harden. He doesn’t do it based on his emotions or because he likes one person better than another. He does it based on his knowledge and his wisdom. He’s the creator using creation to display his glory.

God is impartial. He is infinitely impartial. He doesn’t do things because he likes one person better than another. He does it because it’s right. And because he knows it’s the best way to bring his glory and his salvation to the world.

Erin: As you’re talking about these things, it makes me think of that verse in Revelation. I just pulled it up. It’s Revelation 7:9, and it’s about a great multitude from the great tribulation. “After these things, I looked, and behold a great multitude, which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands and crying out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.'”

It’s no partiality. All different nations, tribes, peoples. What a multitude there is going to be one day. It’s going to be like this kaleidoscope of cultures and tongues and people. I just think that’s cool.

Karen: They’ll all be praising God. It’ll all be for God’s glory.

God is Perfect

Erin: The next attribute we want to talk about is that God is perfect. That means that everything he does is always already perfect. How many of these attributes go hand in hand, right? God is perfect. He’s infinite. His love for us is perfect. It doesn’t come and go. It isn’t biased. It isn’t based on you.

His faithfulness is perfect. No matter what we think about that. His judgment is perfect. No matter what we think about that.

Karen: Noticing a pattern here.

Erin: Exactly. His justice is perfect, no matter what. His revelation of himself to us is perfect. No matter how much we might wish for a billboard. His plans for us are perfect. And, guys, his plans for the world, no matter what we may think about things that are going on, his plans are still perfect.

Karen: We can hold onto the truth of who God is in the face of what evidence—worldly evidence and the evidence of our minds and our hearts—seem to be telling us. These are distractions and things that the enemy, the prince of this world, is using to try and draw us away from that faith in God.

God is Immutable

But here’s one that I absolutely love, and this characteristic gives me the greatest hope. God is immutable. He never changes. He never changes. God is God. I Am that I Am. That’s who God is.

He’s infinitely dependable. If he doesn’t change, if his promises and his purposes, his work in, and his plans for us never change, we don’t have to worry about somebody changing his mind or swaying him to another path or convincing him that we’re really not worth anything and shouldn’t be saved.

We never have to worry about God doing what he says he won’t do. We never have to be afraid. He has told us to fear not. Yes, we need to fear his grandeur and fear his glory and fear his wrath and his judgment. We need to walk in a way that remembers we are the created, and he is the Creator.

Yet God tells us himself in Malachi 3:6 that he doesn’t change. Not ever. In Psalm 33:11, it says, “The counsel of the Lord stands for forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.”

And his plan has always been to draw us to him, to restore us to a state of grace, and to save all those who will come to him and accept that gift of salvation.

Our God is an awesome God. It’s not a cliche. It’s not just a worship song. It’s a truth of who he is. He’s immutable. He’s perfect. He’s infinite. He’s all of these things that we’ve been talking about, and so much more that we will never understand until the veil is lifted and we see him face to face. God Almighty, the God who created us, will deign to come down and let us see him without the veil that we may understand all of who he is.

We’ll spend eternity rejoicing in that and glorying in him. He’s amazing. So, dig in. Find out the attributes of God that draw you and dig in and learn more about him. You can spend your whole life doing it, and I can’t think of a better way to spend your life.

Erin: Amen.

Karen: Amen.

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What characteristics of God are you most familiar with? What about the least familiar with?


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164 – Be a Pen Warrior! with Guest Cathy Gohlke

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Be a Pen Warrior with Guest Cathy Gohlke Write from the Deep podcast with Karen Ball and Erin Taylor Young

As writers, our goal is to encourage and challenge our readers, to point them to God and His truth. In fact, guest Cathy Gohlke takes that a step farther and encourages us to be “pen warriors and light bearers.” She shares how God showed her this was her job as a writer, and how you, too, can become a warrior for God in your writing.

About Cathy Gohlke

Bestselling, Christy Hall of Fame, and Carol and INSPY Award-winning author, Cathy Gohlke writes novels steeped with inspirational lessons, speaking of world and life events through the lens of history. She champions the battle against oppression, celebrating the freedom found only in Christ. When not traveling to historic sites for research, she and her husband of 39 years, Dan, divide their time between Northern Virginia and the Jersey Shore, enjoying time with their grown children and grandchildren. Visit her website at cathygohlke.com.

Thanks to our sponsors on Patreon, we’re able to offer an edited transcript of the podcast!

Erin: Welcome, listeners. We are delighted that you have joined us here in the deep, and we’re excited because we have a guest! We’ll let Karen introduce her.

Karen: Cathy Gohlke is our guest today, and we’re so excited. She’s a bestselling Christy Hall of Famer and a Carol and INSPY award-winning author of ten critically claimed novels. The most recent of which is A Hundred Crickets Singing. She signed her first novel contract on her 50th birthday, folks. That book resulted in her first Christy Award, all confirmation that it’s never too late to step into the dreams God plants in our hearts.

She and her husband of 39 years, Dan, divide their time between north Virginia and the Jersey shore, where they share time with their children and three precious grandchildren. All that’s so great. You can find out more about her at authorcathygohlke.com.

Welcome, Cathy. We’re so glad you’re here.

Cathy: Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Erin. I’m thrilled to be here with you, and I so appreciate the invitation.

Erin: We’re glad to have you, and we look forward to asking all of our guests, what does the deep mean to you?

Cathy: To me, the deep means going deep into the heart of God, seeking his perspective about our broken world and asking what grieves my Father in heaven? And what, conversely, gives him unbounded joy? And what makes me, his child, weep with him? And where do I find his joy in my life?

I find those answers, that sorrow and that joy, in Scripture. In Psalms and Proverbs and the countless stories from the Old and the New Testament. And honestly, the sorrows I find on the world stage in today’s headlines and current events. And in history.

Erin: Yeah, it’s so cool that we have a God who reveals his heart to us in Scripture. That’s a place where it’s there for all time for us to look at and also by his Spirit, his Spirit living in us to help us see those things, too. I love that definition of going deep into the heart of God. That’s great.

Cathy: Well, I think what you just said is true, too, about Scripture. It is always relevant. It is timeless. I mean, it was relevant 2,000, 4,000 years ago, but it’s relevant to today. For me as a writer, and I know writers are listening today, it’s always that God presses some need, some concern, on my heart and on my mind. Some current event that I believe grieves his heart and won’t let me go.

It’s those things that I see emerging in the headlines, some division in society or some injustice I observe. It’s that thing that if I was given the gift of oratory, I’d stand on my soap box and declare, but because I’m a warrior with a pen, that’s what I do with it.

Erin: I love that.

Karen: A warrior with a pen. That’s exactly what we’re talking about today: being warriors with a pen. I’m in an online group with Cathy and other published authors, and she had posted her speech that she gave when she won the Christy Hall of Fame Award. I want to share with you just a few paragraphs from that, because it just struck me. The truth of it and the power of it struck me so hard. This is from Cathy’s speech for that award:

“Through Christian fiction, we battle a confusing and broken world. Our weapons are our minds and pens gifted by the Lord, forged through life experiences, and sharpened by the iron we find in one another. Through story, we enter dark rooms where gradually we lift the shutters of lanterns offering God’s love and redeeming grace. Only then can we rise and walk with our characters and readers into hope, joy, and privilege. Conversely, many writers I see tonight look younger than I, and that does my heart good, reminding me that God is on the move, and that Christian fiction—stories that change lives, bringing hearts closer to the heart of God—is in strong hands. So know that I’m cheering for you and praying for the stories you write and will write. May God bless you, pen warriors and light bearers for the kingdom of heaven.”

That’s you guys, all of you listening. That’s you—pen warriors and light bearers for the kingdom of heaven.

Then she ends with, “May God give your words wings into the hearts of readers for years to come.”

Amen! That whole imagery, Cathy, of being pen warriors, light bearers, for the kingdom of God, I love that. I absolutely love that. When did you realize that that’s what you were?

Cathy: I think that was a gradual thing. Although, I think maybe it came with my very first book. I always knew that I wanted to write an underground railroad story for my first book.

I actually thought that was the only book I’d ever write in my life. I was the most surprised person when anybody wanted more. But really, I started that book not as Christian fiction. I started writing because I wanted to become a writer. I wanted to write stories, and I wanted to write YA fiction.

I was working as a children’s librarian at the time in the school, and I wanted to write books that would set my young readers in the library on fire and get my son reading. But as I wrote that first chapter, it kept coming back to questions. Like, I mean, I remember a question about searching, you know, how our Lord went, searching for a lost lamb. My character felt lost in his confusion about the times and what was going on.

As I wrote this story, people kept telling me, “You should take out all that Christian stuff because it’s really not going to sell.”

Honestly, I tried, but it didn’t work. It just kept coming back because that’s who I am and that’s who God is. He is relentless in our hearts, praise his holy name.

Karen: Amen.

Cathy: So, I wrote it as he gave it to me. I realized as I went through that story that we’re in a battle ground for our minds and our hearts as writers. The enemy will do anything and everything to kill, steal, and destroy. As well meaning as the people I knew at the time were about telling me to take all of that out, that was a subtle infiltration of the enemy for me.

I think it was at that time that I knew that I had to be honest with the Lord. I had to be honest with myself. I had to be faithful to what he gave me. I knew that that was a battle ground, and I think that was the beginning.

Karen: The enemy is so determined to slither his way in and to whisper those things to our hearts and into our dreams that make us think that if we don’t do this, if we don’t do that, then our dreams will never come to fruition.

Then we kind of paint it with this seemingly holy response. Or we say, “Well, if my books don’t get published then readers won’t read what God has given me to tell them. So I have to make sure that the book gets published so that I can serve God that way.”

Those are all lies and justifications that we tell ourselves and that the enemy whispers to us. You know, “If you don’t gain a platform, you’ll never be able to speak out for God.” We forget that every single moment of this journey, every single step we take, has already been prepared by God. He’s there in every moment and every decision.

We don’t have to listen to those voices that are coming at us, whether it’s our friends, or other writing people, or it’s the enemy, we don’t have to listen to those because we can go to the core. We can go to the truth and that’s God’s Word. We can pray to him and prepare ourselves.

I was looking for Scripture about being a warrior and I love Psalm 144:1-2. Listen to this guys and think about it for you as you’re writing. “Blessed, be the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war.”

He trains your hands on the keyboard. Your hands on the pen.

“Who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.”

Oh my gosh. Warrior with a pen.

“Blessed be the Lord. My Rock, who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle; he is my steadfast love and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield and he in whom I take refuge, who subdues peoples under me.” Psalm 144:1-2 (ESV)

Cathy: Amen. I love that.

Erin: Cathy, I like what you said, too, about these people giving you advice. They were well-meaning, and you had to be very discerning about that. You had to keep that soaked in prayer. And for you, you knew where God was calling you to.

“For you,” I like how you said it that way as well, because for some people, they’re going to write different kinds of stories than you write. That’s what God is leading them to. But the real key is for us to have that discernment about these subtle, well-meaning pieces of advice that can come from both friend and foe. It’s so hard.

How would you say that you were able to discern it? What were the things that really helped you to discern God’s specific leading for you?

Cathy: I think I came to a point, and I don’t know when this realization really hit, but it’s been a few years. I came to realize that the experiences in our lives, the very unique experiences that we have been given, sometimes we fail through those. Sometimes we rise victorious. But those experiences are uniquely ours from the Lord, and we learn unique things.

Now it’s true that there’s nothing new under the sun in one way, but we are uniquely and wonderfully made. The way we perceive what’s happened, the way we engage with what’s happened, those unique experiences are ours, and they’re given for a purpose. We can’t ignore that.

Karen: Right.

Cathy: But I think as writers we can use either of those experiences, the things we’ve learned from those experiences, the emotions we’ve experienced, we can use those things to transform our writing from entertainment to parable. I think that is the place and the time.

You know, our demons come for us in many forms. Some are overt and some are subtle, as we’ve talked about. But they creep in like thieves in the night. You know, things like shame and addiction and discouragement and despair and feelings of hopelessness or being overlooked. And for writers, we all battle insecurity. No matter how many books publish, no matter how many awards we’ve won, we battle insecurity, discouragement, sometimes jealousy, or envy, or feelings of effectiveness. Or maybe we feel like, “Oh, what’s my purpose?”

Sometimes we have ridicule even from our families or health challenges. Sometimes it’s the challenge of the blank page. It’s a war. It’s a battle every day. I think that realizing how we are uniquely gifted by the Lord with those experiences can really transform our writing.

Karen: I agree. I think it’s the difference between sharing the reality of those battles, the reality of what we went through: being vulnerable and transparent about our failures, as well as our successes, putting that on the page, letting our characters go through those same things and fail and succeed and showing through it all God’s presence and how he works in those things. That’s what transforms our stories such that God can reach and speak to the readers.

I’ve known authors who have written stories and they kind of try to cover up for God, because they feel like if they failed or something bad has happened to them, God blew it. So they have to make everything look good, and they themselves have to seem like everything is great all the time or else people will be saying, “Well, what’s the point of serving God if you have to go through all these difficult things?”

We have to let people know that serving God will bring difficult things. That’s what it is to be in the fellowship of suffering with the Christ who suffered for us, and who suffers with us whenever we struggle. Being a believer and being a Christian writer doesn’t mean everything’s going to go great. It means that when it doesn’t go great, when in fact it goes horribly, horribly wrong, we have a Savior who understands. A Savior who walks with us, and like you said, uses those experiences to refine us and to prepare us, and to use those things to prepare others for the battle.

Cathy: I think that’s so true and so exciting because just like we talk about story, we are the heroes of our own story, and we have that outward journey, just like our characters. And we have that inward journey that the Lord walks us through. If we didn’t have that inward journey, if we didn’t face that conflict and do that battle in our lives or through our characters, there’d be no story.

Karen: Conflict, conflict, conflict.

Cathy: That’s right. Stories should never be short of conflict because if they are, they’re short of victory.

Karen: Yeah.

Erin: That’s really the key. The more our characters struggle, the more heroic they appear when they triumph. The same is true in our life, only we don’t want to do that.

Karen: The interesting thing, though, for believers is that yes, there’s triumph, but before the triumph, there has to be surrender. You know, you look at the world today and their message is that you need to be strong and you need to face all this and never surrender, never give up. Yet as believers, we have to surrender everything, but to God.

My husband and I, when we sold the last home that we sold in Illinois, and this is twenty some years ago, it took two years for that house to sell. Now we knew God was leading us to move to Oregon to help my folks. But we couldn’t go anywhere until we sold the house. We were constantly checking again with God and guessing and saying, “What is this all supposed to mean?”

Then after awhile, we just stopped asking those questions. After a while, Don and I created a kind of mantra. We said, “God is in control. I may not understand it. I may not even like it, but he’s in control, and I trust him.” You go into every day saying that several times a day. “I trust you. I don’t get it, but I trust you.”

Cathy: Right. And he is faithful. He is trustworthy. We can see that through history, through the Bible, and throughout our lives.

I love what you said about surrender because until we surrender to him, we don’t have a captain. We don’t have anybody to lead this army. Until we surrender to him, we bow our knee to him, we’re not even able to put on the armor. That armor that’s listed in Ephesians six, that helmet of salvation, that sword of the Spirit, that girdle of truth, that shield of faith that is going to repel the fiery darts of the enemy that aim straight for our hearts.

We have to through faith put on that armor every single day. As writers, if we don’t have that armor on, we have a thin skin, and you can’t be a writer and have a thin skin. You won’t survive.

Karen: No, you really won’t. It seems like there are whole armies of reviewers out there just determined to tell you how you should have written this way and how your story doesn’t work here and how “Good heavens didn’t anybody tell you what a bad idea this was for a book?”

Cathy: No shortage of “help.”

Erin: Cathy, I love that you started your whole writing career or at least your publishing career at age fifty. Talk just a little bit about how that dream came about and happened there at age fifty.

Cathy: Well, it started at age five without the zero at the other end, when I was sitting on a sofa with my younger brother, Danny, and our grandmother was sandwiched between us reading us Lewis Carroll’s Through the Looking Glass.

That book was magic to me. I thought in my five-year old brain, I couldn’t read, and I believed that those black block symbols on the page were created by magic that enabled Grandma to read that story again and again. She’s like, “Cathy books aren’t created by magic. Real people write books.”

Well, I didn’t believe that could be true, so I challenged her and I said, “If that’s so, can I write books?”

She said, “Well, usually men write books.” My grandmother was, you know, from the Edwardian age. She said, “But I don’t see why not. You have to learn to read.”

I knew always that I wanted to be a writer. I didn’t have the opportunity for that kind of education. Nobody in my family had done it. Nobody believed it could be done, but the dream never died. After my children were old enough, I took classes at night and online for writing, and I started writing for two local newspapers, just picking up light news and features.

Then I started working in the children’s library, and I wrote plays for a group of mothers. We called ourselves The Mom Street Players. We performed in libraries, and the school, and restaurants sometimes. I wrote poetry, and I guess my first publications in Christian literature were with Marlene Bagnall and her book, My Turn to Care: Essays about Caring for Aging Parents.

I did all kinds of writing, whatever I could do. I wrote skits for church. But I always wanted to write a novel. Finally, I started taking a course through Writing for Children and Teenagers. That was a wonderful correspondence course because it was very much like working with an editor. That’s when I started my first novel.

It took me many years to really learn how to write that novel, but that was the beginning. When I sold that novel, I signed that contract on my 50th birthday. It felt like a new beginning, like the Lord had given me this second opportunity at life. I have loved it.

Karen: I know you guys are just hearing our voices, but I hope in Cathy’s voice, you can hear the amazing, beautiful smile on her face right now. We have video. She’s got a great smile as she talks about God letting her step into that dream and making it a reality! That’s what we all want. We all want to step into the dream God has for us and serve him.

Cathy, believe it or not, our time is coming to an end. Do you have any final words of encouragement or wisdom for our listeners today?

Cathy: Just keep writing. Keep reading. Keep believing. Stay deep in the Word of God. Spend time with him every single day in prayer and in the Bible and in meditation. Just be with him and enjoy him and let him enjoy you. Then go forward with the unique experiences he’s given you to write. To live. He will lead you where he means for you to go.

Karen: Amen. Let me conclude today with the Scripture that you mentioned in Ephesians six, starting with verse ten:

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.” Ephesians 6:10-20 ESV

And for us, keep alert with all perseverance making supplication for all the writers and for each and every one of us who are warriors with pens, that words may be given to us, in writing boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel for which we are ambassadors in chains that we may declare it boldly, put it on the page and write as God calls us to write.

Erin: Amen.

Cathy: Amen.

Be a pen warrior and light bearer in your writing! Guest @GohlkeCathy tells how! #amwriting #christianwriter Click To Tweet

Have you ever felt like a pen warrior? Why or why not?

Book by Cathy Gohlke mentioned in the podcast

A Hundred Crickets Singing by Cathy Gohlke

A Hundred Crickets Singing by Cathy Gohlke


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